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"Experienced user"
Billy Kelly - 7.29.17, 6:38 am Post #11: | Reply With Quote
Norco kid said
I realize that but for Traxxas to lay claim to all cantilever suspension is ridiculous.
The patent office didn't think so. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But they do own the patent.
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"Experienced user"
KristofferR - 7.29.17, 3:58 pm Post #12: | Reply With Quote
The real problem is that in the US, the "level of invention" required to patent something is much lower than in the rest of the world.

As you have noted, engineering solutions that have been known and used for decades are being patented. The novelty of using a widely used suspension design and scaling it down is negligible and would never be considered worthy of a patent in Europe or Japan.

In my profession as an engineer, I spent weeks wading through the sea of patents filed by US companies to protect their market and it is just depressing. The products do not benefit from patent engineers and lawyers battling it out but that is the way it works. If I need to read patents for weeks I cannot do other work - whoever filed the patent wins by obstruction. In the US, apparently there is also a tendency to take legal action.

As soon as one company starts down this route others need to follow and it ends up with all companies keeping a handy patent portfolio to hold against each other. And as mentioned, usually nothing happens as they have enough on each other.
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"Experienced user"
Norco kid - 7.29.17, 4:16 pm Post #13: | Reply With Quote
It seems like it's Traxxas's strategy to just patent everything they can possibly think of when designing a new vehicle and then hammer down on anyone who makes anything similar. They of course have no problems building upon other brands ideas though. Bad for the hobby as a whole really. Who do you think ends up paying for all these shenanigans? Traxxas probably spends more on advertising and lawsuits than they do on putting out a good product. Really can't respect a company like that.
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Thumper01 - 7.29.17, 7:34 pm Post #14: | Reply With Quote
So sad. The RC Juggernaut Traxxas going after the up-and-comer Arrma. Honestly, what good can come of this? Who's next, Tamiya? Is the Frog "infringing" as well? It had lay down shocks too if I'm not mistaken. Oh wait, the Tamiya Frog was being sold and built by hobbyists back when Traxxas was still in diapers. Sheesh.
"Experienced user"
Billy Kelly - 7.29.17, 8:10 pm Post #15: | Reply With Quote
Thumper01 said
So sad. The RC Juggernaut Traxxas going after the up-and-comer Arrma. Honestly, what good can come of this? Who's next, Tamiya? Is the Frog "infringing" as well? It had lay down shocks too if I'm not mistaken. Oh wait, the Tamiya Frog was being sold and built by hobbyists back when Traxxas was still in diapers. Sheesh.
The lawsuit is against Arrma owners, Hobbico. Not some small up and coming brand. Or someone making parts by hand in a small shop.

Tamiya has is own collection of patents.

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/ind...oogle-patents/
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Thumper01 - 7.29.17, 8:53 pm Post #16: | Reply With Quote
Billy Kelly said
The lawsuit is against Arrma owners, Hobbico. Not some small up and coming brand. Or someone making parts by hand in a small shop.

Tamiya has is own collection of patents.

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/ind...oogle-patents/
I realize that Arrma is a Hobbico brand. It just seems a bit contrite, that's all. I just don't understand the intentions. It's not as if Arrma's use of the cantilever style suspension is causing Traxxas any grief. I understand that it is business and an apparent legal matter, but our hobby needs companies that support the grand scheme rather than nitpicking about patents. If RC is to survive, competing companies should be as amicable as possible. Tearing each other apart really doesn't help the hobby in any way in the end. Just my opinion.
"Experienced user"
Billy Kelly - 7.29.17, 9:26 pm Post #17: | Reply With Quote
Thumper01 said
I realize that Arrma is a Hobbico brand. It just seems a bit contrite, that's all. I just don't understand the intentions. It's not as if Arrma's use of the cantilever style suspension is causing Traxxas any grief. I understand that it is business and an apparent legal matter, but our hobby needs companies that support the grand scheme rather than nitpicking about patents. If RC is to survive, competing companies should be as amicable as possible. Tearing each other apart really doesn't help the hobby in any way in the end. Just my opinion.
The problem is that distributors decided to become brand owners. And the Hobby became divided. Its Horizon vs Hobbico vs Traxxas. It would be great if they could all work together. But it's haven't been that way during my time. Maybe it once was more of a community back in the day. Tamiya has its own track for Tamiya vehicles only. Axial fest wasn't open to all brands of scalers, as far as I know.

Look at the hobby shows, they are all but gone. Last time IHobby was in Chicagoland, only Traxxas and Horizon had displays. Axial had Big Squid with the YetiXL, but Axial had no display or rep

I agree lawsuits are bad. I believe they are usually settled out of court before we the public usually find out. Looks bad on both sides. And unfortunately it's Tower Hobby that's going to be hit from collateral damage. As it looks that Tower and Traxxas are splitting.
(Last edited by Billy Kelly : 7.29.17 at 9:30 pm)
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slick2500 - 7.29.17, 9:43 pm Post #18: | Reply With Quote
To me it just looks like Traxxas trying to crush it's competition in the rtr market. Arrmas 1/8th scale vehicles are not only more durable than the next closest Traxxas counterpart, they are also far cheaper. $629.95 for the E Revo vs $499 for the Kraton. This is just my personal opinion on this matter.

The patent thing has gotten way out of hand over here in the states, there are actually companies that buy patents and then sues everyone and anyone it can to try to make money. That is literally the only purpose of these companies.
(Last edited by slick2500 : 7.29.17 at 10:28 pm)
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fyrstormer - 7.30.17, 12:19 am Post #19: | Reply With Quote
Billy Kelly said
The US Patent office would disagree. Big picture it's two million dollar companies suing each other. It's not uncommon, just usually doesn't get out to the public. In this case its Tower Hobbies that's going to feel the effect. Looks like the divorce of Traxxas and Tower has begun. Member here said his Tower has now cancelled his order of the new Traxxas scaler.
The US Patent Office is staffed with people who, like most US Government employees, are pitted against each other until they stop caring whether they do anything useful anymore. Every time I've worked directly with government clients, the baseline level of frustration pervading their office is nerve-wracking just to be near. Nobody can do anything without five other people who disagree with them being ordered to cooperate by their managers, who *also* disagree with each other.

Norco kid said
I really don't understand how it's possible to sue. It's not like the nero is a direct clone. That would be like axial suing Traxxas for making a scaler with steel frame rails? It's just a fundamental part of the vehicle.
I think suing because of the Nero would be an open-and-shut case, honestly. Low-slung chassis with battery-boxes on either side, motor on top, long-travel cantilever suspension front and rear, remote-locking diffs...the Nero is basically what would happen if someone did an E-Revo conversion to a Summit.

Being able to sue because of one specific design feature that has existed for decades is absurd, though. In my mind, if there's been a violation of intellectual property, it's because Hobbico produced a vehicle that very closely mimics the Summit's overall design, not just one easily-recognizable feature.
(Last edited by fyrstormer : 7.30.17 at 12:22 am)
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fyrstormer - 7.30.17, 12:24 am Post #20: | Reply With Quote
Norco kid said
It seems like it's Traxxas's strategy to just patent everything they can possibly think of when designing a new vehicle and then hammer down on anyone who makes anything similar. They of course have no problems building upon other brands ideas though. Bad for the hobby as a whole really. Who do you think ends up paying for all these shenanigans? Traxxas probably spends more on advertising and lawsuits than they do on putting out a good product. Really can't respect a company like that.
Every successful tech company does this nowadays. It's the only way to do business in the USA anymore.
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